Designed To Scale in a Borderless World

Intro  0:04 

Welcome to The Future is Borderless podcast with David Nilssen. We feature top entrepreneurs and thought leaders from around the world, those who bring a global mindset and a unique perspective to their life and business. Now, let’s get started with the show.

David Nilssen  0:22 

David Nilssen here I’m the host of the show. Here we connect with business leaders from around the world who have a borderless mindset. They can share ideas, innovations, best practices that can be applied to both life and business, ultimately helping us to lead and grow in a rapidly changing world. Now, this episode is brought to you by Doxa Talent. Doxa Talent helps businesses source full time highly skilled workers from all over the world. And as a result, these companies can scale faster, increase their margin and improve culture. To learn more about Doxa and how you can leverage borderless talent go to doxatalent.com. All right. For today’s guest, Lex Sisney is a business scaling expert and a wizard in organizational structure and design. He works with CEOs and leadership teams of expansion stage companies, who are committed to growing their business without compromising their values. Lex after experiencing some struggles, founding and then leading fast-growing companies, he discovered that organizational success can be distilled down to some very simple yet powerful principles that also happened to be the laws of physics. And these laws were true 10,000 years ago, and will be just as true 10,000 years from today, Lex has authored two books, or actually four books, Designed to Scale: How to Structure your business for Exponential Growth, Organizational Physics: The Science of Growing a Business, How to Think About Hiring: Play smarter to Win With The Talent Game, and then Ready For Enlightenment: An Insiders Guide to The Biggest Trip of Your Life. He also creates some amazing content on organizationalphysics.com, where he shares insights into scaling a business and building high-performing teams. Lex has been featured as a keynote in a variety of high-profile events, including LinkedIn in our MBA program, YPO, and EO events and many, many others. And on a more personal note, I’ll just tell you that Lex Sisney has been a huge influence on me as a business mentor, and coach and now friend. In fact, it would be hard for me to find anyone else who has had such a significant impact on me as a leader. So I’m thrilled to now share him with you. So, Lex, it’s great to have you on the call.

Lex Sisney  2:35 

Thanks, David, and congrats on your new podcast. That’s pretty cool. I’m excited to tune in. And I know we’ll all learn a lot.

David Nilssen  2:44 

Yeah, I’m excited for it as well, I appreciate you being willing to take the jump with me here. So before we get into what you’re doing today, I thought it’d be good to just start from the beginning. In your intro, I talk a little bit about or I share that you had had some challenges as a founder and entrepreneur, maybe you could share just a little bit with the audience hear about what your entrepreneur journey has looked like?

Lex Sisney  3:02 

Yeah, I think the most important lessons for me is that I came from a school of like, have big ambition be really focused, go all in and work your ass off. Like, that’s the secret to success, and I think that’s true, it will get you to a certain level of success, and then it doesn’t scale. And what happened with me is I was just, also, market timing was everything. I kind of got lucky as a business in the right market environment, and it just got yanked forward by market demand, and as a young CEO, I’m doing my best to lead this company. And if I reflect back in that period, I was taking a very piecemeal approach. Like I’d read a book to get excited about something about culture, I’d read another book or about incentive plans, and my board member, one board member would tell me this, and I’d do that and another one, just feel like the noise in my head. And what’s interesting is if you find yourself in a hyper-growth situation is you experience quickly the limits of popular wisdom because much of it is conflicting, you got to know like, does this apply to my situation now did it apply to my situation six months ago and six months in the future, you with me? If you’re in a normal growth environment, you can get away with so much like you can be making the mistake gradually and there’s no feedback mechanism. But a little bit of a mistake and a hybrid growth situation, you’re gonna get instant feedback that this isn’t working and it’s even more complicated because every action has an equal and opposite reaction right? So I may have done something in one area of the business and I’m having a fallout another and I might even where the correlation there the causation. So it was in that setting that I realized I had to come up with new approaches. And that kind of began a quest for, I didn’t have this language at the time, but I was looking for cross border or cross-discipline, mental models, like, principles that exist in this domain, exist in that domain. And I just had a very strong intuition if I can hone in on those, like some universal first principles, I could like build on those, I could build up from there. But if I lacked those, I would just be chaos and noise in my head and in my life and in my work. And so that’s what happened. I went on this quest. Entrepreneurs are kind of all or nothing. I legitimately like, shifting gears in my life from trying to be entrepreneur, CEO to questing for, like insights and frameworks and then coaching. And there I learned a lot from that transition, but it went a lot longer than I thought it would. And anyway, the end result was Organizational Physics, which is my coaching practice. And I have, you mentioned the book, couple books, three or four books from there. And the idea is, hey, when you’re in a fast-growing company, and you get to this transition zone, you’ve tried a lot of things, your intuition is telling you, yeah, something’s off here. I need to change things to scale. But I don’t want to lose my entrepreneurial edge that are core values and doing it. I step into that transition zone and kind of help teach CEOs who were in my position a decade ago how to navigate their way quickly through that, and get back on the fun curve, growth curve, but without becoming an old stodgy, big bureaucratic company that you’re trying to disrupt.

David Nilssen  6:39 

Yeah, it’s funny, a lot of what you just said there resonates for me. You start reading these books, you get all these random ideas. In fact, my team’s in the past used to get really nervous when I would go to a conference because they knew I would come back with all these different ideas that they now have to implement. And we probably lose momentum on three to six months down the road as a shiny new toy. But what are some of the symptoms you talked about? You talked about intuition. I think a lot of leaders least those that I know, do rely a lot on their intuition. But what are some of the symptoms? Like if you’re in a hyper scaling business, but you’re starting to recognize, hey, things aren’t working out, what are some of the things that people might see not just feel?

Lex Sisney  7:18 

Okay, so some of the things they might see and experience is they feel like a bottleneck themselves. Like the CEO or founder feels like despite their best efforts at delegating, they’re just still the go-to can’t escape and those times that they’ve tried to delegate, it’s been a disaster, right? So twice bitten one shy. They’ll believe they have some really strong leaders of departments or teams, but the team is not working well as a team. So they might speak like, hey, we have really strong verticals, but we’re weak horizontally. The company might be trying to pursue too many different initiatives all at once. And that’s important, because you want to match your business rhythm to the lifecycle stage of the company, the products and its markets. And so a lot of entrepreneurs are so visionary and gung ho, that they use get out in front of their own skis, and they bought three different business units. So they didn’t have the foundation really to scale one, they just didn’t realize it until they tried to launch two and three, and they realize the limitations on their core business, so that’s another symptom. And another set of them often, like if you’re like me, I tried to do what I was supposed to do, I tried to bring in a senior management team back then. I missed her outside, I’m going to have an inside person to run all this crap for me, so I can do my genius out here. So you got to go through this. You got to kind of go through and step on the upturn Reagan, get smashed a few times in the nose. Oh, all this popular advice isn’t always so astute. Those are some symptoms.

David Nilssen  9:09 

I remember. So it’s funny. I remember, I can’t remember the exact year I think 2012 is when I first met you around a conference in Seattle. And I was talking to you about something similar about how I was thinking, maybe I could put myself in my genius, which wouldn’t necessarily be as the operator. And I think what I had outlined to you said, that sounds nice if you want to be the queen of England. I think those are your exact quotes. Didn’t really work. By the way, when you said strong vertically, but we horizontally I’ve actually seen I think if I’m understanding this correctly see this in many businesses where an entrepreneur maybe myself gets excited about something, we invest in this new opportunity, and we hired leadership to help lead it but we don’t actually resource to the shared services that have to support that and you ended up in this place where you’ve got early momentum and then behind the scenes, things are starting to really fray. Is that what you’re talking about?

Lex Sisney  10:01 

That wasn’t what I was talking about. But that’s another good symptom is that we’ve launched this new initiative. And it’s kind of a stillbirth, we’re excited about it, but it’s not breaking through to real market penetration. So that’s certainly a symptom. I was talking about something more general where it’s just weak cross-functional coordination happening. And often people will attribute that to a breakdown in people and culture. But if you look beneath the surface, you’ll see there’s actually a structural breakdown and often a process breakdown that’s harming cross-functional coordination.

David Nilssen  10:37 

Got it? One of the concepts when I first read Organizational Physics. Now, for those that are on this call, if you’ve not read Organizational Physics, I will tell you, I probably recommended this to 50 different entrepreneurs. I always say it’s one of my top three favorite business books. And it’s true, what Lex’s biography resume, I should say says, these principles were true 10,000 years ago, they’ll be true later, one of the concepts that for me was such a game-changer was the concept of entropy. I wasn’t even familiar with the topic when we first met the idea that, we have a finite amount of resources, and entropy steals those resources first. And so a lot of us go chasing the shiny new toys, but we have holes in the boat that are leaking, causing stress in the system for lack of a better term. Yeah, we talk a little bit about what entropy is, and sort of how you help teams assess where that might be.

Lex Sisney  11:28 

Yeah, so entropy is a loaded term, like a lot of things in life in business. So but I want to come back to intuition and your gut feel, because I think it’s so important to recognize that. If you have a good mental model to frame up on a situation, like based on first principles, then you should trust your intuition and your gut wholeheartedly, you’re with me, but if you lack that mental model to make sense of things, you’d lack those first principles, then your intuition, your gut can really send you a stray. Okay, so I’m making a big assumption that you’ve got a good first principle mental model to apply to your work, or life or any situation. Now I’m saying you can trust your gut. And so going with that, let’s just say, okay, you can sense of things are working well or not based upon what feels like an energy game. That’s a symptom of things working well. It’s a symptom of being an integration with the environment. Okay, but if you’re sensing, there’s energy drains happening, okay, that’s a symptom of entropy, that’s a symptom of failure or energy loss occurring, and like if your life or your business was a boat, if strategy would be I want to sail to Tahiti, okay, that’s strategy, right? I got to get a good crew together, we got to have spree decor that’s like culture and people, okay. But the boat got to have a good design, that structure, and the whole team’s got to come together and sail, well, that’s process. But if there’s a freakin hole in the boat, doesn’t matter, all those things, you’re going to, you’re going to stall, you’re going to sink, that’s entropy. Entropy is akin to having the hole in the boat. And the reason why I’m coming back to intuition here is that all of us intuit that. But if you’re like me, you were conditioned to ignore it. Just fight through, ignore the problems, focus on what’s working, well, don’t go there. But if you go back to the first and second law of thermodynamics, you’re going to realize, no, I should pay attention to the hole in the boat. That’s a symptom of entropy, that’s going to kill the symptom, the system, if, unless I plugged the hole, you know what I mean? So people don’t like the term entropy, fine, but just think it’s shits falling apart, there’s a hole in the boat. If you’re good captain, like, look under the waterline periodically and make sure that there aren’t any holes stealing from your top-line performance. And that’s the big epiphany in Organizational Physics is because we have finite energy and time, if you want to sail far and fast, don’t let entropy eat away from the inside out, you got to put some time and resources into solving it. And what I do in my work is fundamentally help companies align on the right strategy. Keep the same culture but then work as a team to reorganize, reduce entropy or get plugged the hole so that you can sail further and faster and have a lot more fun. But if you ignore the holes in the boat, you heard me you know what happens? So, that’s the idea.

David Nilssen  14:19 

Yeah, I think that was the part that stood out to me, though, because every time I read a book, it’s always about opportunity, right? Like, what’s the next thing we’re going to do? What’s the next thing we’re going to take on? What’s the next way we’re going to grow? And I thought it was just such a unique perspective and think about like, what is stealing from your ability to take on that next thing and make sure you would do that first. I loved that.

Lex Sisney  14:36 

Yeah, alluding to what you were saying earlier, and if we do take on this opportunity, what are the downstream implications that we need to be preparing for now? So we don’t put a hole on our boat right by virtue of this crash you to do to the rocks, I guess could be one metaphor together.

David Nilssen  14:56 

Well, let’s talk about your new book, so Designed To Scale, again, for those that are here, if you haven’t had a chance to read it, I highly, highly recommend it. One of the things I really enjoyed in there is you really focus on organizational structure. It’s a big portion of the Book, right? Given I help businesses all over the world find talent, I see that people are constantly struggling with how they’re organized, and who owns what, maybe we sort of addressed this a little bit earlier, but I’d love to just revisit it. If you’re an entrepreneur in a growth stage business, yes, your intuition is telling you something as awful, what are some of those things that you might see with someone that’s organized poorly?

Lex Sisney  15:39 

Okay. So some of the things that might see if someone’s organized poorly is that they’re just failing to capture the opportunity. Okay, they think they know what they want to do and why they want to do it, but they’re just not able to get after it and execute quickly on it as a team. That’s the biggest indication that you might have a structural flaw. I mentioned entropy is a loaded term structure is even more loaded term out there. It’s not the org chart. Org Chart is what represent people in reporting lines. And it’s not the accountability chart either, right? You can have an accountability chart that is perfectly clear accountability is totally misaligned for the strategy, or that have conflicting accountability is assigned to one roll, right. And so when you get to a certain size of business growth, you got to kind of step away from the status quo, look again, at your business and say, okay, for this strategy, what are the functions we need to energize in order to execute on it now, in overtime? My function is sales, marketing, operations, finance, right? What are the functions we need to energize to drive this strategy? Notice, I haven’t talked about people, I’m not talking about the status quo, they’re off the page. And you want to design those under certain principles are kind of first principles. And so what you’ll see like in a startup, everybody’s just wearing a ton of hats super fun for a while until you reach the law of diminishing returns, but somebody’s wearing a bunch of hats, and they’re in charge of sales and marketing, very common. That’s actually structural flaw. Those are two distinct functions, there’s sales, which is short-range driving revenue, there could even be demand generation on that, which is driving qualified leads out. But then there’s marketing, which is brand strategy, brand architecture, longer range development, just in fact, intuition. Notice that short-range pressure always overpowers long range development. That’s why if you’re working crazy hours, you’re like, okay, I just got to get over this hump. And then I can take three days off and like rest, renew, reflect, or I got to go away on vacation and really plan for my future or I’m not as present with my family or my staff, right? The short-range pressure is incessant. It’s the tyranny of now, if you don’t design against it, that short-range pressure will overpower your long-range development, including your brand strategy, brand architecture. Another structural flaw will be companies, especially companies that over craft, they allow efficiency, which is doing things in a controllable way in a repeatable way. They allow efficiency to overpower and control effectiveness, which is breaking glass, trying stuff, being flexible. Just tuned in with me back to intuition realized, like to be effective, you got to break glass and try stuff, you got to do the right thing, and against total changing conditions fast. But they shouldn’t see they’ll lock it down. Yeah, it’s very common to find structural flaws, where people just code join things where, if they’re not careful, they have a heavy operational environment Six Sigma processes controls, that’s just stifling effectiveness. So you can’t allow that if you want your business to grow. Now, another example would be companies can allow centralized control, which is necessary, right? To keep the company out of harm, they can allow it to over like, be in control of exactly the wrong things. Delighting customers, or trying new ad campaigns or making the sale you know what I mean, just notice there’s all these tensions and that you get to a certain stage of business, you got to develop the skill to go, okay, I have these polarities, or these tensions, like a sailboat. I got to pull the sheet in enough to catch the wind and steer in the right direction. But if I pull it too tight, I’m going to flip if I let the sheet too far, going to fall out of the wind. I’m going to stop. You kind of start to have to think like that. Like, what do I need to dial in here? What I need to pull back a little bit here? Those are all related structure, if your structures messed up, if we’re miss organized, then you’re going to hire people into the wrong role. You’re either going to hire the wrong people, or you’re gonna hire the right people and put them in the wrong roles and they’re going to failed that way. So none of these are problems for a small startup. Okay, these are all like nice to have problems after you have product-market fit, and you’re being pulled forward by market demand. That’s why a lot of entrepreneurs still aren’t fully in tune with them, because they just haven’t gotten to that stage yet.

David Nilssen  20:17 

Yeah, I mean, so that makes total sense? When do you reassess strategy or sorry, your structure? Because you’re first young business, and you’re trying to figure out, do I have product-market fit, and you’re gaining momentum, you’re just building your team? You said earlier, chief cook, and bottle washer, everyone’s wearing other hats, but at what points do you need to go back and constantly sort of reassess, are we organized correctly?

Lex Sisney  20:40 

There’s only two times you have to look at structure, and you shouldn’t look at it at all really, until you already have product-market fit. You may be tempted to look at it earlier. But really, it’s like teaching your 13-year-old calculus, like, wait, like do manage the kid to the stage at all fair, the kids on stage-manage the business day. So get product-market fit, that’s all that matters to start with. Then as you have that, you got to build out the business, right? Now’s the time to start looking at your structure. And what I always do is I first design around functions, like the brain in my head is that performs a function, my heart performs a function, my lungs perform a function, same thing for business. So you want to layout now in language organization visit, we’d say we’re in kind of the mid nail it to early scaling stages, when you want to start to look and design your structure for the next stage of growth. And the only hard part about that is the CEO is so close to the people. It’s very hard to step away from the people and think functionally and structurally, what do we need to drive forward this strategy? So first, if there’s a okay, to answer your question, when to look at structure, don’t do it until you’re in mid Nail it to late scale it, that means you have product-market fit, you’re being pulled forward. Look at it anytime there’s a material change in strategy. So that would mean most companies don’t make a radical shift in strategy is more of an evolution. But let’s say that I have my core business and it’s doing well, it’s a cash cow great. I’m going to launch my new business, what would happen if I took my same structure that I have for this cash cow business and I tried to launch this new initiative in it, what’s gonna happen?

David Nilssen  22:26 

It’s going to break down.

Lex Sisney  22:28 

It might get a little early traction and it’s going to stifle, it’s going to die. Right, it’s going to be a stillbirth. So that requires a change of structure that allows the team to drive the cash cow business and launch and grow and develop and pilot and they’ll scale this new initiative. That requires a change in structure. Yeah, so lifecycle changing, if changing lifecycle stage requires a change in structure, changing strategy requires a change of structure after you have your core business up and running.

David Nilssen  22:56 

Yeah, I don’t want to overgeneralize the structures themselves. But in your book, you go through a few different frameworks to think about it at least. I remember years ago, I went to a Singularity University event, right. And the instructor who I thought was fantastic, was really preaching this idea of self-organizing teams as being like the future. And you said, that’s one of the concepts that you bring up, right, the top-down, the man of teams and the team of teams. Talk a little bit about the differences between those.

Lex Sisney  23:25 

Okay, so there’s a lot of noise out there about, it’s the anti-structure, the anti-structure crowd, okay, the Zappos model. They’re the anti-hierarchy crowd. And the irony is that if you look behind the scenes of a super egalitarian, self-managed organization that’s working well, it actually is a hierarchical structure in place. It’s just hidden. And the reason is, is that design controls behavior. So imagine like novice entrepreneur who’s read happiness and their fan of steam, Gabe Newell, and they’re just like, I’m going to leave this company away. And they don’t put any design elements into it. They just like, hey everyone show up and self-manage, it probably work at three to five people. And then you just like, it’s just going to be a mess. It’s going to be worse than the mess because a couple of the companies that I’ve worked with that they have these very high aspirational cultures, and they fail to live up to, it’s even worse because they’re failing to hit this high target right now. So as a leader, you got to think okay, the only reason I have a structure by the way, this is also misunderstood, is to delegate, it’s to push authority down so that self-organization can happen. But there’s some things you have to have design in place. It’s not unlike being a game like, imagine we’re playing a board game. Let’s say we’re playing Settlers of Catan. You could be really excellent player at Settlers of Catan. You’re The best like you take pride in beating people and winning and being crafty awesome, you’re a great game player. But someone had to design the game Settlers of Catan for others to play, as a CEO journey, you’re going to have to make the leap from a great game player to a great game designer so that others can play the game you set up for them to play. And it’s not laissez-faire, come what may, let’s party doubt. It is a thoughtful conscious design, with thoughtful, conscious leadership behind it. And just what happens is in a self-managed organization is the leader steps more back behind the scenes, so it can appear to even the employees like it just kind of things just kind of magically unfold here, but there’s a design happening, trust me, there’s someone designing it, and they’re tuning it very subtly, quietly behind the scenes unless they need to step forward aggressively because there’s a crisis. Or Harmon values or something like that.

David Nilssen  26:02 

Yeah, there’s value to both. But I think that feels right to me. And I love the irony, and the whole idea of that self-managed or self-organizing teams. Somebody’s creating that structure and helping to sort of even drive the principles that people operate within.

Lex Sisney  26:15 

Yeah, imagine the self-managed without hierarchical principles.

David Nilssen  26:21 

Yeah. In your opinion, how much the structure depend on people? And I’ll give you an example. So, when you and I first started working together, I was the founder and CEO of Guidant Financial, and I’ve since left that, my partner is running that business doing very well. But I’ve started Doxa Talent. But as a founder, you just are who you are, right? And who you need around you sometimes is a little bit different based on your own skills and interests and what have you. So how much of the structure depends on the senior leader in your opinion?

Lex Sisney  26:53 

How many Phil Jackson NBA championships were a result of the triangle offense? He’s got 11 rings.

David Nilssen  27:03 

So I’m guessing it’s 11, then?

Lex Sisney  27:05 

I don’t know. I think it might be nine. Like, he had great talent, like amazing talent. I don’t have the answer. But it’s a hypothetical, of course, but like, I think Michael Jordan would have ended up with a few less championships, and Kobe, and Shaq would end up with a few less championship without a good structure and process in place to execute within. And there’s a structure and process that allows some of those egos to meld together better as a team. So their credit, both are absolutely critical. The interesting thing to me about structure is if you can think through your structure independently of the people, then you can apply like, oh, I need this kind of leader here in this role, that will complement me and they bring these other skills to the table, this other style. If you lack that, then you’re just attracting people that don’t maybe have a role to energize the structure or the right role for them. And you’ll end up wasting a lot of time making a lot of costly mistakes.

David Nilssen  28:04 

Yeah, so maybe the correlation is closer connected to the lifecycle of the business. I mean, you talk about it being like a pilot it, then you nail it, then you scale it and then you miss it.

Lex Sisney  28:17 

You want to avoid it, but it’ll be a successful product, or unit will get the milk it and then kill it, which means to shut it down, sell it off, but use those proceeds to fund new initiatives when you’re in the belt get or kill it stage.

David Nilssen  28:31 

Yeah. But I guess the question is this, the structure that you use, and the type of leader you need is probably really connected, though, to the stage of the business. Interesting. I was just I was thinking I remember, you have an assessment that you’ve developed called PSIU and the P stands for producer, S is stabilizer, I is innovator and U is unifier. And the idea is, you’ve got to have some of those forces on each team in order to sort of help it achieve its full potential. And I remember I’m a high P, high I, high U, producer innovator unifier, but you don’t want me designing the processes, for lack of a better term are managing the day to day right. And so I remember at one point, having the conversation like the type of leader that we need at different stages of the business will shift. And as entrepreneurs, we have to be willing to accept that.

Lex Sisney  29:24 

I would say that founders are hard to replicate that the boundary and that high innovating for us that’s a force that brings like strategy and vision and future. We want to treat that as sacred. Because it’s hard to replicate and that it needs to be at the top of the organization as long as is possible, but how the structure evolves around that and who the complementary team is around that does evolve. What I said isn’t true for all founders, right? Some founders don’t have that certain knack for this kind of business at this time in history, but those who do it’s don’t underestimate how valuable that can be.

David Nilssen  30:15 

Yeah. I agree with that. Well, I know we’re getting close to the end here. But I want to just ask you one more question. And I’ll preface it by saying, I believe today that we are living through a fundamental transformation in the way that we work and we live in it requires, as I said earlier, this like borderless mindset, looking beyond the way that we think and we learn today, and allowing us to sort of change in this dynamically changing world. I guess my final question is, what advice do you have for business leaders who are struggling to adapt as fast as the world is shifting?

Lex Sisney  30:50 

So a leader is going to struggle to adapt primarily for two reasons. One is their own intellectual processing power hasn’t been able to keep up. And the solution there is to become a systems thinker, right? Become a cross-border thinker, like look for those first principles that exist across domains. And if you can spot one of those, like you can double down, you can take that to the bank that creates all of latticework for you to hang other ideas on. I think that most leaders though, don’t suffer from that they actually suffer from, they’re stuck in the inertia of the status quo. Their current business inertia is just like, it’s hard to move, it’s hard to turn the ship. And it’s important to recognize that inertia and life and work is a real thing. We want to think about that, okay, if I know what the strategy needs to be in this changing reality, then I owe it to this organization. I must help this organization re-evolve, right? Evolve, change, re-energize for this new reality. No holds barred. And a key element of that shift is going to show up in the structure because the structure is supporting the status quo. So you got to break the structure that’s supporting the status quo in order to get new behaviors. So that’s probably where the friction is coming from.

David Nilssen  32:24 

Fantastic. Well, we’ve been listening to Lex Sisney, who’s the author of Design To Scale: How To Structure Your Business For Exponential Growth. If you haven’t read it, buy it, I promise it will have a huge impact on you and your business. But Lex if people want to learn more about you and your concepts, where can they go?

Lex Sisney  32:42 

Organizationalphysics.com.

David Nilssen  32:45 

Awesome. Thanks, Lex. Thanks for being here.

Lex Sisney  32:46 

Thanks, David. Cheers.

Outro  32:50 

Thank you for listening to The Future is Borderless Podcast with David Nilssen. Be sure to click subscribe to future episodes so you can hear from more top entrepreneurs and thought leaders, and we’ll see you again next time.